Andy Stumpf: Drownproof, the Pentagon, and the Field of Joy
Andy Stumpf：Drownproof、五角大楼，以及那片喜悦之野
Three Feet Off the Ground at 120 Miles an Hour. A man zips up a nylon flying-squirrel suit on a Swiss cliff, rocks forward to the point where he can't rock back, and sends it. For the first few seconds the suit doesn't fly — he just falls. Then it catches, and he makes right-hand turns past granite walls at 120 mph, sometimes three feet off the grass. Andy Stumpf is a retired Navy SEAL, a podcast host, and as of the day this conversation aired, the author of Drownproof. What follows is a conversation about the things that are actually dangerous in life, and why most of them are not what people think.
120 英里时速，离地三英尺。一个男人在瑞士的悬崖边拉上尼龙翼装的拉链，身体前倾到无法回头的那一刻，纵身一跃。前几秒钟翼装根本不飞——他只是在坠落。然后它接住空气，他在花岗岩峭壁之间以 120 英里的时速做右转，又一个右转，有时离草地只有三英尺。Andy Stumpf 是一位退役海豹突击队员、播客主持人，就在这次对谈播出的那天，他出版了新书《Drownproof》。下面这场对谈讲的是生活里真正危险的那些事，以及为什么大多数人想错了方向。
Chapter 1 — The Field of Joy
第一章——喜悦之野
18.257 miles, face-first
18.257 英里，脸朝下
In May 2015, Stumpf set the wingsuit distance world record at 18.257 miles, jumping from 36,500 feet and raising over a million dollars for the Navy SEAL Foundation. The number matters less than the texture. "To me it was very reasonable," he tells Rogan. "People will pull me aside and they'll be like, hey man, what the fuck?" Watching one video is not watching the sixteen years of skydiving and months of training behind it. The record stood for a year before another Marine took it further. The discipline beneath the record is the point.
2015 年 5 月，Stumpf 从 36,500 英尺纵身一跃，飞出 18.257 英里，刷新翼装飞行距离世界纪录，并为海豹突击队基金会筹了超过一百万美元。比纪录更重要的是质地。"对我来说这非常合理，"他对 Rogan 说。"会有人把我拉到一边问，老兄，你他妈在干嘛？"看一段视频，看不到背后是十六年的跳伞经验和数月的训练准备。这个纪录只保持了一年就被另一位海军陆战队员打破。重点从来不是纪录，是纪录背后的训练纪律。
Three feet, three turns, no margin
离地三英尺，连续右转，没有容错
In Switzerland, base jumpers hike for hours to reach the start of a line. They zip up the suit, check everything twice, and rock forward to a place where they can no longer rock back. The first seconds, with no air speed, the suit doesn't fly — they fall. Then it catches and the flight is a sequence of right-hand turns past granite, with short low windows where the angle is correct. Stumpf's unintentional closest pass to the ground: about three feet, at 120 mph. "You don't do that for very long."
在瑞士，定点跳伞者要徒步数小时才能到达航线起点。拉上拉链，把所有东西检查两遍，然后身体前倾，倾到不能后退的那一刻。最初几秒没有气流，翼装根本不飞——人就是在坠落。然后空气接住翼装，飞行变成一连串擦着花岗岩的右转，在角度合适的短暂窗口里贴近地面。Stumpf 无意中飞得最贴近地面的一次：大约三英尺，时速 120 英里。"你不会那么干太久。"
The mechanism is incrementalism
机制是渐进，不是胆量
The pilots who survive are not the ones flying three feet off the ground all the time. They are the ones who have practiced a specific jump many times — slowly, incrementally, working their way down to short low sections and back up. "A mistake in that environment is you're going to impact an object head-first at 120." Several innovators have died at the low-altitude, low-airspeed phase where deploying the parachute can no longer save you. Stumpf has not put the suit on in five or six years. "I don't live in a place where I can stay current."
活下来的飞行员不是一直贴着地面飞的人，而是把同一条航线反复练过很多次的人——慢慢地、一点点地往下贴，飞过那段短暂的低空区间，再回到安全高度。"在那种环境下，一个失误就是脸先撞上一个物体，时速 120。"好几位这项运动的开拓者死在了低空低速的那一段——伞已经救不了你的高度。Stumpf 已经五六年没把翼装拿出来穿了。"我现在住的地方没法让我保持手感。"
Chapter 2 — Why SEALs Drown
第二章——为什么海豹突击队员会溺亡
One foot in the water, one foot on land
一脚在水里，一脚在陆地
The Naval Special Warfare community draws from the UDTs and the Scouts and Raiders. Until September 11, 2001, almost every operation began in the water and ended back in it. "It was one foot in the water and one foot on land," Stumpf says. "Almost all of the training we did pre-9/11 was based around water." Two decades of land-heavy deployments later, the maritime DNA is part of why the modern community is what it is — and why the book is called Drownproof.
海军特种作战部队的血统来自二战的水下爆破队和侦察突袭兵。在 9·11 之前，几乎每次行动都是从水里开始、再回到水里。"一脚在水里，一脚在陆地，"Stumpf 说。"9·11 之前几乎所有的训练都是围绕水的。"二十年以陆地为主的部署之后，这种海洋基因依然是这个群体的内核——也是这本书叫《Drownproof》（防溺水）的原因。
The swim buddy who didn't come back
那个再也没回来的潜伴
Two SEALs recently drowned during a real-world shipboarding operation. One peeled off the climbing ladder and went into the water. His swim buddy — the man whose entire job is to be in the water with him — went in after him. "Never to be seen again." Stumpf describes it without theatrics. The point is not the rarity. The point is the maritime environment is unforgiving in ways the modern public image of a SEAL does not capture.
最近有两名海豹突击队员在一次真实的登船行动中溺亡。一人在攀爬登船梯时滑落，掉进海里。他的潜伴——这个角色全部的职责就是和他一起待在水里——跟着下水救人。"再也没见到过。"Stumpf 讲这件事时没有任何戏剧化处理。重点不是这种事多罕见，而是海洋的残酷以一种现代海豹形象掩盖不了的方式真实存在。
The training has to be hard
训练必须狠
People die in SEAL training. Stumpf does not flinch from the number. "The training has to be so hard," he says, because "you have to train people for the job that they're going to do." Making it gentler does not save lives downstream — it costs them. The bureaucratic instinct to reduce friction is, in this one specific community, the wrong instinct. Drownproof is the long-form argument for why.
海豹的训练会死人。Stumpf 不回避这个数字。"训练就是必须这么狠，"他说，"因为你必须按照他们将来要做的工作去训练他们。"把训练放松，下游救不了命，反而要赔命。在大多数官僚体系里降低摩擦是正确的本能；但在这个特定的群体里，它是错误的。《Drownproof》就是把这个道理写成了一本书。
Chapter 3 — The Pentagon Nobody Audits
第三章——没人审得动的五角大楼
Zero, of twenty-four
24 家联邦机构里，只有它一家
The Department of Defense is the only one of 24 major federal agencies that has never passed a full clean department-wide financial audit. The annual audit requirement began in 2018. Eight years of trying, zero successes — most recently confirmed by the Pentagon's own announcement in December 2025. "It's only been going on since 2018," Stumpf deadpans. "So no big deal, guys. It's only eight years." For an agency that spends roughly $850 billion a year, the math gets uncomfortable fast.
国防部是 24 家主要联邦机构中唯一一家从未通过部门级清洁财务审计的。年度审计要求始于 2018 年。八年了，零通过——五角大楼自己在 2025 年 12 月最近一次公告里又确认了一次。"也才搞了八年嘛，"Stumpf 一脸正经地说。"没什么大不了的，伙计们。才八年。"对一个每年要花掉大约 8500 亿美元的机构来说，这笔账迅速变得不太好看。
The 2028 promise
2028 年的承诺
The Pentagon's own audit materials and the DoD chief financial officer have pointed to fiscal year 2028 as the target for an unmodified clean department-wide audit — contingent on fixing long-standing accounting and systems problems. Stumpf's analogy is the most clarifying line in the chapter: "Imagine the IRS calls you up — Andy, you didn't pass your audit. I think I can get it in 2028. I'm on a lower trajectory towards this target you want to be at. You want me like this — I'm like this. I can get there in about two years."
五角大楼自己的审计材料和国防部首席财务官把 2028 财年定为目标——届时希望拿到一份"未保留意见"的清洁部门级审计报告，前提是把长期累积的会计和系统问题修好。Stumpf 的类比是整段里最锋利的一刀："想象一下，国税局打电话来，Andy，你审计没过。你回他：我觉得 2028 年应该能过。我现在这个轨迹偏低了点，你想要的水平是这样，我现在是这样，再给我两年差不多。"
The Marines are the only ones
只有海军陆战队过了
Of the military branches, only the United States Marine Corps has ever passed a clean financial audit — earning its first unmodified opinion in 2023, and again in 2024. Every other branch — Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force — has not. "Those guys are tightened up, man," Stumpf says. The smallest combat-arms branch turns out to be the only one that can account for its own equipment. Whatever institutional habit makes that true is worth a closer look than it usually gets.
在所有军种里，只有美国海军陆战队拿到过一份清洁的财务审计——2023 年第一次拿到"无保留意见"，2024 年再次拿到。其他所有军种——陆军、海军、空军、太空军——都没过。"那些人真的把自己绑得很紧，"Stumpf 说。规模最小的作战军种，反而是唯一一个把自己的装备讲得清楚的。能让这件事成立的那种机构习惯，值得比通常更细致地看一眼。
$100,000 of REI shoes in three hours
三小时刷掉 REI 十万美元的鞋
The DoD fiscal year ends October 1. September is the month when budget officers realize how much they have left to spend — and the institutional belief, true or not, is that unspent money means a smaller budget next year. Stumpf was briefly a supply rep. "They'd say, 'You need to spend $100,000 in the next three hours on shoes.' Let me tell you, REI.com will run that card." Asked whether he ever saw anyone actually get in trouble for under-spending, he says no. The reflex outlives any evidence for it.
国防部的财年在 10 月 1 日结束。9 月是预算官员开始算账的月份——一种制度性的信念，不管真假，都是：钱没花完，明年预算会被砍。Stumpf 短暂当过一阵后勤代表。"他们会跟我说，'你要在接下来三小时内花掉十万美元买鞋。'告诉你，REI 官网刷这张卡眼都不眨。"问他有没有真见过谁因为没花完钱被处分，他说没有。那种反射比任何证据都活得久。
Six shots from the Carl Gustaf
卡尔·古斯塔夫开六发
The Carl Gustaf M3 recoilless rifle has a manual warning: repeated firing risks concussion injuries to the operator — Stumpf cites a guidance threshold of roughly six shots before the operator should rotate out. Training units are routinely issued pallets of ammunition with the instruction, "you're not leaving until all these are shot." Crews fire until they have nosebleeds. M60 belts get the same treatment. The ordnance was issued. It will not be carried back to base. So it gets expended — into hillsides, into the air, into whatever the range officer points at.
卡尔·古斯塔夫 M3 无后坐力步枪的手册里有警告：连续射击会让操作员受到震荡伤——Stumpf 说大约打到第六发就该换人。训练单位经常领到整个货板的弹药，附带一句"打完这些才能走"。射手就一直打到鼻子流血。M60 机枪的子弹链也是一样。弹药已经领了，按规定带不回基地。所以就只能打掉——朝山坡、朝天空、朝靶场指挥官指的任何地方。
Chapter 4 — Turbo Cancer and the Chemo Question
第四章——"速发癌"和化疗的那个问题
The oncologist who gave chemo to people without cancer
那个给健康人化疗的肿瘤医生
Rogan recalls "an oncologist who got arrested because he was giving people chemotherapy that didn't really have cancer." The case is real. Dr. Farid Fata, a Michigan oncologist, was sentenced to 45 years in federal prison in July 2015. He had bullied or deceived 553 patients into receiving chemotherapy and other treatments they did not need, generating $34 million in fraudulent Medicare and insurance claims. The motive was money: chemotherapy is unusually profitable for the administering physician. The case became a national reference point for how badly a medical system can fail when one person's billing software has no functional adversary.
Rogan 提到"一个肿瘤医生被抓了，因为他给没得癌症的人做化疗"。这是真事。密歇根州的 Farid Fata 医生 2015 年 7 月被联邦法院判处 45 年监禁。他通过威吓或欺骗，让 553 名病人接受了根本不需要的化疗等治疗，骗取了 3400 万美元的医保和保险理赔。动机就是钱：化疗对主治医生是格外赚钱的项目。这起案件成了一个全国性的参照点——当一个医疗系统里某个人的账单系统遇不到实质上的对手时，它会败坏到什么程度。
Stumpf's mother and the second round she refused
Stumpf 的母亲拒绝了第二轮化疗
Stumpf's mother survived cervical cancer once. A decade later it metastasized to her lungs. She started a platinum-based chemotherapy regimen, then realized she was going to die either from the cancer or from the treatment — and chose hospice. "The ride on the chemotherapy was so horrible that she couldn't take it anymore." The card sits in the chapter not as data but as the question every reader of a treatment-side-effect leaflet eventually asks: at what point does the cure become a worse death than the disease?
Stumpf 的母亲第一次扛过了宫颈癌。十年后，癌细胞转移到她的肺。她开始接受铂类化疗方案，然后意识到，无论是癌还是化疗，都会要她的命——于是选择了临终安宁照护。"那种化疗的过程太可怕了，她受不了了。"这张卡放在这一章里不是为了数据，而是为了那个每个翻过药品副作用说明的人迟早都会问自己的问题：到了哪一步，治疗本身变得比疾病更难死？
Rogan's friend, six months from remission to gone
Rogan 的朋友，从缓解到离世只有六个月
A close friend of Rogan's — in his early forties, fit — developed an aggressive cancer in the years after mRNA vaccination, went into remission with help from Gary Brecka's protocol, and was told he was clear. About eighteen months later it returned "with a vengeance." Six months after that, he was dead. Rogan flags a pattern of similar cases — labeled "turbo cancer" in dissenting circles — that he says mainstream press has not investigated. Whether the link to the vaccine is causal, contamination-related, or coincidence is contested by regulators. The pattern of healthy young people dying very fast is what the card sits on.
Rogan 一个亲近的朋友——四十出头，身体很好——在接种 mRNA 疫苗之后的几年里得了恶性肿瘤，靠 Gary Brecka 的方案进入缓解期，被告知没事了。大约 18 个月后，癌症"凶猛地"卷土重来。再过六个月，人就走了。Rogan 指向一种类似的病例模式——异见圈子里叫它"速发癌"——他认为主流媒体没认真调查。这种现象和疫苗之间是因果、是污染、还是巧合，监管机构有争议。这张卡落在的，是健康的年轻人迅速死亡这种模式本身。
Who pays for the news that runs against pharma
谁来支付那些不利于药企的新闻
Stumpf and Rogan land on a structural answer rather than a conspiratorial one. Pharmaceutical advertising is a huge share of network television budgets. The Calley Means argument they reference: drug ads are not really there to inform consumers — they are there so that network news programs do not criticize the drug companies. "If they control the ad inventory and then the checkbook behind that," Stumpf says, "that's the lock." It is not that no one is reporting on adverse events. It is that the institutions that should be are being paid not to.
Stumpf 和 Rogan 给出的解释是结构性的，不是阴谋论的。制药公司的广告费占了电视网预算的很大一块。他们引用 Calley Means 的观点：那些药品广告其实不是用来告诉消费者药品信息的，而是让电视新闻节目不去批评药厂。"如果他们控制了广告资源，背后还连着支票簿，"Stumpf 说，"这一把锁就锁住了。"问题不是没人报告不良事件，问题是那些本该去报道的机构在被付钱让他们不去报道。
Chapter 5 — Drownproof
第五章——《Drownproof》这本书
The inscription
那段题词
Toward the end of the conversation Stumpf hands Rogan a signed copy. He explains the inscription he wrote in it. "My life would not look the way it does had you and I not randomly met through Tate Fletcher. My post-military life would look completely different, and I have no ability to pay you back for how gracious you've been with your time and your platform." It is, in a podcast that spent two hours mostly on hardware and risk and skepticism, the only moment that does not flinch.
对谈接近尾声时，Stumpf 把一本签名书递给 Rogan。他解释了写在扉页上的那段话。"如果不是当年我们因为 Tate Fletcher 偶然认识，我现在的生活不会是现在这个样子。我退役之后的人生会完全不同，而你用你的时间和你的平台对我那么慷慨，我没有办法报答你。"在这场用了两个小时谈装备、风险和怀疑的播客里，这是唯一一处没有遮挡的瞬间。
Be a positive impact
让自己成为一股正面的力量
Asked how he plans to repay the platform, Stumpf says: "My promise is that I will do the best I can to be a positive impact on the world around me. I think that's the best way that I can try to pay you back, and honestly it's the reason why I wrote that in the first place." Drownproof: Eight Life Lessons to Keep Your Head Above Water — by Andy Stumpf, St. Martin's Press, with a foreword by Joe Rogan and blurbs from Jocko Willink and Jack Carr — is the answer to that promise in book form. The audiobook is read by the author. Publisher page.
被问到打算怎么报答这个平台，Stumpf 说："我的承诺是，我会尽我所能，让自己成为身边世界的一股正面的力量。我觉得这是我能报答你的最好方式，老实说也是我一开始写这本书的理由。"《Drownproof：八堂帮你浮起来的人生课》——Andy Stumpf 著，St. Martin's Press 出版，Joe Rogan 作序，Jocko Willink 和 Jack Carr 写推荐语——就是这份承诺的书面版本。有声书由作者亲自朗读。出版社页面。
"My promise is that I will do the best I can to be a positive impact on the world around me."
The conversation circles back, two hours in, to the same quiet thesis: serious risk is survivable, but only by people who refuse to look away from it. A wingsuit pilot survives because he practiced the angle. A SEAL community keeps drowning because the sea is the sea. A federal department fails its audits because no one made it pay for failing them. Each chapter is a different shape of the same lesson — and the book on the table is what Stumpf wrote when he ran out of ways to say it on a podcast.
"我的承诺是，我会尽我所能，让自己成为身边世界的一股正面的力量。"
两个小时过去了，谈话又绕回到那个安静的论点：真正严重的风险是可以活下来的，但只有那些不肯把目光移开的人能活下来。翼装飞行员活下来是因为他练过那个角度。海豹突击队不停溺亡是因为大海就是大海。一个联邦部门审计屡屡不过，是因为没人让它为没过付出代价。每一章都是同一堂课的不同形状——桌上那本书，是 Stumpf 在播客上找不到更多方式去讲这件事之后，把它写下来的样子。